236 – Denise Páne Talks Navigating ADA Compliance for Websites for Business Success

Karen Yankovich 0:00
You’re listening to the good girls get rich podcast episode 236.

Intro 0:06
Welcome to the good girls get rich podcast with your host, Karen Yankovich. This is where we embrace how good you are girl, stop being the best kept secret in town, learn how to use simple LinkedIn and social media strategies and make the big bucks.

Karen Yankovich 0:24
Hello there. I’m your host, Karen Yankovich. And I remember when I got a little bit of a punch in the gut about, frankly, this podcast and ableism I was at a conference at a podcast conference, and there was a conversation about is your podcast ATA compliant? I’m like, What the heck does that mean? I have, you know, I people can listen to it. I’ve got show notes. And somebody said to me, yeah, but is do you have the whole transcript? I’m like, Who the heck is reading the whole transcript and they said, people that can’t hear. And I was like, Holy crap. You know, I mean, talk about privilege, right? Like, I don’t even I didn’t even it didn’t even occur to me, that I was leaving out a percentage of the population that might be interested in this show, because I didn’t have the entire transcript of this episode anywhere. And now I do if you’re listening to this on the actual website at Karen yankovich.com/ 236. If you go to the bottom of the page, you’ll see a button that says read the transcript. And if you click that button, it opens up the whole transcript. But it’s just one example of the privilege that I have. That is blinders, right? Like how like you don’t think of the things you don’t think of until you until you talk to other people. And they point it out to you. Which is why when I loved when I met Denise, who’s our guest today, I love the work she’s doing because what she does is she helps people like me and people like you incorporate ADA compliance to our websites. And among a bunch of other things. There’s a lot of really interesting things that Denise doesn’t we’re going to talk about. But this is a really important conversation. Because, you know, even in your LinkedIn profile, there’s things that you’re gonna want to think about from a position of privilege, right, like, do people that have that are differently abled than you? Are they able to really take in all the yumminess of your LinkedIn profile? So can you relate to that? Can you relate to like just not just having a moment where you’re just like, oh, my gosh, I didn’t even think of that. Well, that’s what we’ve got to nice on the show today. So kick back listening, you’re gonna love this conversation. I have Denise Panay with us here today. And Denise is the CEO and founder of access Design Studio, the leading expert in ADA compliant accessible websites. A lifelong advocate of people with disabilities, starting with her own special Olympian brother, Denise boasts over 20 years of business design expertise with a special focus on making websites compelling and inviting for people of all abilities. Denise is an accredited accessibility expert, and a member of the International Association of accessibility professionals, and the World Wide Web Consortium. And I’m gonna we’re gonna learn more about Denise here on the show today, and I’m gonna link all her stuff in the website, in the show notes to this disease. I am so, so excited. We’re finally making this happen. We were talking about doing this interview for a while now.

Unknown Speaker 3:16
Yeah, I’m so happy to be with you, Karen.

Karen Yankovich 3:19
Yeah. So Denise and I met through some business colleagues, and I just love the work that she does. I think it’s so important, because you know, sometimes as CEOs of our business, and a lot of the people that listen to this are maybe transitioning to entrepreneur from a corporate lifestyle, or are building a business, right are building a business and your expertise isn’t what you’re so good at. And we’re trying to like, figure out the other stuff, right? Like, what does a real CEO do? And what are the business things and the important things and that’s why I love bringing people like Denise on the show, because this is something that I did not do initially. And I was called out on it. And you know, that is my website, ata compliant, it probably still has work to do. But specifically, it was the show that somebody called me out on and they basically said, you know, what, if somebody can’t hear, and they can’t listen to it, I’m like, Well, they’ve shown us like them on the same show, which is not the same as a transcript. So then I added a transcript. But what I did was because I didn’t want the page to be and this is all like stupid things. Like nobody wants to think about this stuff. Like I created a button on my I didn’t want like the page for this website, to be this alone, this page full of all this, you know, with the transcript, so I put a button that said, click here to get the transcript. And it opened a second page on my website up with the transcript. And then somebody said to me, Google is gonna ding you for that because you’ve got the audio here and the transcript on two different pages, and it’s identical content. And if it’s two different types of medium. So now we have and you guys that are watching this listening to this on my website can check this out. We actually have a button on the page for each episode, that when you click it, it opens the transcript on that same page. So it’s not there until you click it but if you click it, you can listen you can read the actual transcript on this Same page. But we did this, it didn’t even occur to me, Denise that I have to do this. And of course, I want everybody with all different kinds of abilities to be able to listen to this. Right, but who can think of all these things? So tell us a little bit about you, what you to where you are here and to I mean, I want to hear about your brother. Yeah, sure Olympian. That’s pretty cool. And like, how did this all come together? For you?

Speaker 2 5:23
Yeah. So Well, I had had a web design agency for 20 years, but then the pandemic hit, right. So there’s always been inequality when it comes to accessing the web. But during the pandemic, everybody was online, for their health, for their social, for their banking, for their food for every aspect of our lives. People with disabilities were left way farther behind. I don’t know if you remember what when member when we could first register to get vaccines, it was a federal website. Now, that website was not accessible to blind people. So blind people literally could not register to get a vaccine. Yeah, right. So it just blew up. And you know, people just got they were just over it it with, with with total understandability. They were over it during the pandemic, like we have been, like the left behind for so long. It’s unacceptable. So that’s when lawsuit started really flying. And of course, we you know, in the US, we do love our lawsuits. And so that is often what motivates people into movement. And so that’s where, because it’s been legally mandated that your site is ADA compliant for decades. But it’s now starting to really become apparent, because the lawsuits are really flying. Well, you know, it’s interesting

Karen Yankovich 6:39
when I and it’s this is complete ignorance on my part. But when I think about ABA compliant, I think of bathrooms, I think of wheelchair accessible, I can think of things like that I don’t think of my website, I just don’t, and I’m, and that’s ignorance on my part, right? Like, I need to know these things as the CEO of a business, you know, it’s my job to do this, right. It’s part of my job is to, and especially because I stand for this, like, it’s not like, I’m like, Oh, who cares about Google? But like, right, it horrified me. When I realized I didn’t do this, you know, because I was like, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 7:12
I appreciate that. Karen, I appreciate that you care that much. And what I really like people to understand is that digital accessibility is really different than physical accessibility. Because when we think of disabilities, we think of people who are blind or deaf are in a wheelchair, right? Digital Accessibility, we don’t we don’t understand that people that have a huge variety of disabilities struggle to use the web, like, people with ADHD, with dyslexia, with autism, with colorblindness, with trembling hands, like a lot of older adults with short term memory. I mean, I could go on and on and on. So we’re talking, of course, about your employees, your site visitors, your clients, we’re talking, I mean, we all know, we could probably name on, you know, many hands that people we know that would fit into the list of categories of people who are supported by an accessible website. So it makes a huge difference in people’s lives.

Karen Yankovich 8:09
So where do we start when we’re thinking about our digital footprint, our corporate digital footprint? And I guess my personal brand digital footprint, too, right? I will, you know, think I’ll add LinkedIn into that, right? Like, yeah, where do we start?

Speaker 2 8:21
Well, so if you want to do some things on, you know, on one’s own, there are ways on social to make sure that your content is accessible. Most all of the platforms allow you to add alt text, which is just a short description of an image. So there’s somebody who has visually impaired or maybe they have slow internet, so they’re not loading images, they just live in a rural area, they don’t have fast internet, or maybe they can’t afford fast internet, they can have a similar experience to sighted people or to people sighted meaning people with sight or to people that have you know, high speed, because the image will be described, it tells us you know, what is there that is one thing. Another thing is to keep your and this is just good practice everywhere, right? Keep it all as short and sweet as possible. Big long, five paragraph essays, long paragraphs of text. That’s hard for somebody with ADHD. Many people with dyslexia, many people with autism, I could go on and on.

Karen Yankovich 9:15
So but nobody wants that. Nobody, nobody wants it perfectly abled people are not interested in reading five paragraphs about you.

Speaker 2 9:21
And that’s what’s cool is that an accessible site and accessible content actually creates a better user experience for everybody whether they have a disability or not.

Karen Yankovich 9:32
So cool, so cool. So we jumped over the how, what brought you to this? Yeah. Tell me about your brother. Tell us tell us about how that inspired him. Tell us about him and what is how he inspired you.

Speaker 2 9:43
Thanks so much for asking about him. So my brother is three years older than I he is developmentally delayed and epileptic and he has been busting my chops since the day I was born. That his favorite thing in the world has given me grief. We are just like your typical siblings who are like a lot Have each other best friends and like Raleigh still went my way out, like even in our 50s, right? My mom just rolls her eyes. She’s like, are y’all ever gonna grow up? And I think the answer Yeah, I

Karen Yankovich 10:08
had all my kids here this past weekend. And I’m just like, oh, my gosh,

Speaker 2 10:13
you’re in recovery mode. No, dad. Yeah. So like I said, he was born, he’s epileptic and is developmentally delayed. So he has been involved in, you know, special education and Special Olympics and, and special programs, since he was very young, maybe like five or six, or seven, and I’m three years younger than he, and my family is super, super close. So we were all involved in each all each other’s lives, they went to all my games, we went to all his games. So I started volunteering, you know, Special Olympics, when I was really young, maybe like nine. And so did that for, you know, a couple of decades. And then I worked in a special education classroom, and I ran a camp for kids and adults with disabilities. And then I ran another camp for kids that were an integrated camp kids with and without disabilities. And so I’ve been involved my whole life, and have been an advocate for my brother, but the biggest motivator is my brother, and just seeing what my parents have done from him to make done for him from the very beginning to make sure that he’s included and he can thrive. And so and so for me, it puts me in a great position, right, I have, you know, a 2023 years at this point of a experience with a web design as a web design firm, and a lifetime of experience with people with disabilities. So it’s a it’s a perfect marriage for the ad. Yeah.

Karen Yankovich 11:31
So what are what are a couple of mistakes that you see over and over that, that, that, you know, traditionally, people that think they’re doing a good job don’t realize that they’re even making?

Speaker 2 11:40
Yeah, that’s a great question. So any movement on a site, whether it’s a video, whether it’s, you know, animations, not the tiniest ones, the animation that just take, like, you know, a second or two, but like some things loop, or any movement, needs to be able to be stopped. Because that can somebody with epilepsy can be triggered to have a seizure, people with ADHD can’t focus, it can really bother people, some people with autism. And you know, I actually don’t have a disability, and I cannot concentrate, if there is movement, I need to either need to scroll the page, so I can’t see the movement. Again, it makes a better user experience for everybody. If I’m on a site, and I can stop the movement, I guarantee you, you’re gonna get a lot more of my attention on your site, because I can’t concentrate when there’s movement. That’s one thing that’s really overlooked a lot is being able to stop, we, you know, video is awesome on websites, it shows it’s higher conversion, but we need to be able to stop it. Okay, interesting. Yeah. And then all texts, like I described, that’s every image except for purely decorative images. If it’s purely decorative, leave it blank. But if it has meaning, then you want to describe it. So the non sighted or somebody with low vision, or again, like somebody who has their image is not loading, they can have a similar experience. And it’s not, you want to describe the images image like woman in a vineyard, trimming grapes with hand prunes, you know, or pruning shears or whatever, so that I can have that experience. If I’m not sighted, I can understand what that image is.

Karen Yankovich 13:14
We’re gonna jump in for a minute and just remind you that my goal is for there to be more wealthy women in the world, women with money can change the world money gives you more choices. And choices allow you to serve from the overflow, I want your cup not just full, overflowing so that we can serve from the overflow because I know that’s what you want. I know, most of the women that listen to this show or that are in my world, a women that really are world changers. So if that’s you, you may want to think about looking into joining our she’s linked up program she’s linked up is where we teach women how to meet the kinds of people that can change their business and their life and their bank balance for ever. You know, it’s not just LinkedIn strategy, all the strategy in the world isn’t going to help you get there if you’re, if your mindset isn’t in the right place. So there’s a lot of mindset work in this program. It’s really about identity shifting, helping you step into that multiple 678 figure, business owner, the CEO of your business, I’m your life. And we do that in a very quick building a lot of ease into it. I’m not gonna say it’s easy, because it’s not there’s a lot that goes into this, but we’ve got your back. We help you every single step of the way. My team and I are so committed to your success. We custom design everyone’s experience in this program to really serve them at the highest level. It’s 12 week program. And our goal is for you to know exactly how to get the kinds of people on your calendar that will move your business forward in a big way we look for some quick wins. We help you build the tip the foundation for some long term wind and have a lot of fun while we’re doing it. So if you want to know a little bit about what that’s like, grab a spot on the calendar just go to Karen yankovich.com/call Or go to this links in the show notes here and do Just get on the calendar, we’ll talk a little bit about what your goals are. And we’ll help you come up with some ideas on how to support that these goals, these calls are really, really valuable. Whether or not we think that we can help you, we’re definitely going to help you at least on this call, if we think that we can help you, whether she’s linked up program or some other something else maybe that we can offer, we’ll tell you what that looks like if you want to hear but mostly, we want you to get a lot of value. So Karen yankovich.com/call, get two on the calendar, and is the first step to really shifting the way you look at your business and your life. And where does that old text even come up?

Speaker 2 15:39
That comes up? Um, so if somebody has a screen reader, which is what reads aloud the content of a website, if you have low vision or are blind, then it will read that it will read that all text, you don’t have to say it’s an image of the screen reader will describe that. Oh, or see. Yeah, example? Exactly.

Karen Yankovich 16:00
I have no idea. Yeah, I’ve heard of it. I just didn’t really know what it was. Yeah. And

Speaker 2 16:04
usually a lot of people have WordPress sites. And WordPress makes it super easy to add alt text. And so here’s the other thing that’s so awesome, is an aside that is ADA compliant ranks higher in the search engines. Because anything a screen reader can read, Google can read, and Google wants to deliver results for deliver sites that are usable for the most number of people. 25% of the population has a registered disability 25% in the US in Canada, worldwide, we’re talking a huge population. So if your site is ADA compliant, Google goes well, yeah, 25% more people can use this website. It’s gonna rank you higher.

Karen Yankovich 16:43
Wow, that’s interesting. I feel like I feel like I dropped that poll. After how to go check that out. Yeah, that’s a lot. I know. It’s definitely yeah. And I’m thinking about like, every single podcast image times 250, or whatever are now you know, so yeah, whatever we’ll get there. We’ll get Yeah, totally. Exactly. Right. I mean, in the here’s the thing. Here’s the thing today, whenever you learn today is something you didn’t know yesterday, and you do you do better. You do better tomorrow, right? It’s not it’s not I mean, I feel like it’s not something you want to beat yourself up for. It’s just something that you now know better. So you can do better. Exactly.

Speaker 2 17:14
Exactly. And I don’t like people to get overwhelmed, you know? Because the reality is, Karen, it’s really technical like to become the have an ADA compliant side, the layperson can’t do it. It’s just that simple. But there are things that you can do and then move towards that direction of working with an accredited accessibility expert firm, to become fully compliant. Because it’s just it simply is not possible for the Layperson.

Karen Yankovich 17:39
So my site is a WordPress site. But what about people that use sites like you know, Squarespace, and yeah, well, they have is that do they?

Speaker 2 17:46
Almost all of those and Yeah, almost all of those allowed you to access the code, which a lot of it is code code based.

Karen Yankovich 17:52
Awesome. Awesome. And you said something earlier that I want to make sure that we point out and that is that, you know, we work so hard to, to get our stuff seen by people, you know, and people ask me every day, how do I get my posting more on LinkedIn, I always click the wrong question. But we leave money on the table. And we don’t think about these things, right? Like, you know, we can have, you know, somebody said to me one time, I don’t know if I’ve ever said this to you. But someone said to me one time that so many entrepreneurs, and I certainly can relate to this, when I first heard this, there’s always a plan in their head for some kind of ad campaign, right? I’m gonna do Facebook ads or Google ads, I want to get a Superbowl ad, right, like ads are a big industry, right? And what an ad does is it gets your content in front of people that you hope are interested in what you do, right, so that they call you. But we’re not putting the same amount of effort into SEO, right into the kinds of things that Google is going to deliver our site for. Which is crazy, because when people when you come up in a search engine, you’re investing in coming up in something that you know, people are interested in men because they’re searching for it. Yeah. It’s not like, let’s hope somebody is that sees our ad is interested in what we do. This is No, no, they’re interested, they’re searching for it. Yes. So we I’m not saying don’t do ads. But before we invest $25, or $25,000, in ads, let’s spend $25 or $25,000, to make sure we’re not leaving any SEO holes on the table so that we are at least, you know, coming up when people are searching for the kinds of things we do. And you’re what I’m hearing from you is you know, it’s very possible that many of us are not coming up as often as we can in Google searches, because we’re not paying attention to these little things that we could just these are little tweaks on our website.

Speaker 2 19:34
Absolutely. There was just a great study that came out. That said that websites that were made accessible, there was a 12% average increase in overall traffic. Wow. 73.4% saw growth in organic traffic that’s search engine traffic, and 61% saw growth in organic traffic up Two 50% Like those are big numbers, right?

Karen Yankovich 20:04
Huge numbers. Yeah, you know what I mean? Listen, I mean, listen, if if somebody from you know, Coca Cola is listening, and this is helping you, I’m so happy. But chances are people listening to this are going to greatly monetarily benefit by 25% increase in anything. Yep. Right. And any part of the work that you’re doing, oh, my gosh, so cool. So I want to I want to take this conversation in another direction, because I think like, we’ve hit the point like, this is there’s money in this to do this, right? We live in a world right now where, for better or for worse, it’s a little polarized, right? But more and more, I’m finding people want to work with people that have similar values to them. Yeah. And I actually, just recently, I noticed, I saw that on LinkedIn on your LinkedIn company page. And if you guys have not done this yet, you need to look at this, go to your LinkedIn company page, because one of the options now is what are you committed to it literally says, showcase what your organization cares about, because top talent are looking for employers who share their values? And the kinds of things you can add are things, you know, are things like, what are you committed to? Right? What are you, you know, are you committed to social impact? Environmental DNI, right? So there are, you know, not only is it good for your business, from a very practical standpoint, there you are, you literally I feel like in this world, what we want to do is shoot, hang up, hang a shingle, right wherever we can, yep, to let the world know, no, I got you. I am very committed to being a DA compliant and things like that. So do you see how does that fit into the work that you do just from you know, what, I don’t even know what the word is. But from a purely like, you know, you want to make an impact on where you want to make you want to be an influencer in this space.

Speaker 2 21:45
I so love that. And there’s a reason that LinkedIn is now having that because so much research shows that employees want to work for companies that are involved in you know, care about social justice. And we all know that like having a good having a good employee retention program right now is hugely important. And people, consumers want to buy products and services, from companies that advocate for social matters. Like there’s so much research, I could, you know, I won’t bore you with it. But you know, Forbes and Nielsen reports and etc. Talking about that. So this is where we as CEOs get to be leaders, right, we get to say, everybody is welcome. In our, in our company that starts with probably their first impression of you, which is your website. And then we get to, you know, like I said, when people see that the leaders care, right, that because again, you’re not just talking about your clients, you’re talking about your employees, you’re talking about your employees, spouses, and kids and parents who are affected by this. So as leaders, as CEOs and leaders of our businesses, if we show that it’s important to us, not only do they feel cared for, we know that people, you know, they learned by leaders, we all do, we all have our mentors, and those we look up to. So we are actually leading a whole social justice movement by giving a shit.

Karen Yankovich 23:10
Oh, my gosh, and not only by giving your ship, but by letting people know that we give a shit. Yes, absolutely. Because part of our brand you advocate for literally putting on your website, like this website is ABA compliant, or something like that,

Speaker 2 23:21
like 100%? Well, there’s always an accessibility statement that will go with a site that’s been made compliant, and that an accessibility statement is something it’s linked to in the footer. And it does two things. One, it shows users, they can go there immediately if they have special needs. And they can see where they might have stumbling blocks, because some sites may still have something blocks, especially if you use third party like a calendar app or a booking app or an E commerce, there might be stumbling blocks. And it also it’s an open conversation. It says, Hey, if you ran into anything on this site, let us know we will try and address it. It’s actually an open conversation. And then we certify businesses as being accessible. We give an actual certification. It’s a small little badge that goes in the bottom on the bottom of the website. Because of course, we want people to know like, I want everybody to know, right? The more companies that care, the more everybody will care. So I love that there’s ROI on digital accessibility like it just as a win win for everybody.

Karen Yankovich 24:22
That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So how do people learn more get started to learn more about this? How, what’s the best way to dive in and get started with you know, not just not just a theoretical commitment due to this but an actual commitment and actually take the first step towards having an ADA compliant online presence?

Speaker 2 24:38
Well, I am happy to hop on a call with anybody and do a quick Accessibility Assessment of their site. And so you can you know, my my website access design studio.com You can request a consultation right there and I’ll just hop on with you and say, here’s where the strengths are. Here are some weaknesses are here’s where you might be missing out on some convert versions here. So, you know, we discussed SEO like, it’s a really in depth. And it’s complimentary for a couple of reasons. One is, my goal is equal access. I want equal access, however, we need to get there. Great. But then, of course, I would love to work with lots of people. So then that’s also a way for us to start the conversation. They can see if they’re comfortable with us, if they want to bring us on to get it done for them. Got it?

Karen Yankovich 25:25
Got it. Cool. All right, well, we’ll link to all of that in the show notes. And of course, you need to connect with Denise on LinkedIn, and in all the places, and all those links will be in the show notes as well. What do you think’s next for you? And for ADA compliance, and, you know, the digital world? Is there anything on the horizon that you see,

Speaker 2 25:44
yeah, it’s becoming huge, like, people need to, I just want to say there’s one thing I would love to be able to say, Karen, in that is this, please, there are those little toolbars, you can see that are on websites, and usually it’s in a corner and it’s a little colored, you can click it and something pops up. And sometimes it’s somebody with their arms spread, or sometimes it looks like a wheelchair icon. Those do not work. They are driven by AI Artificial Intelligence, which can only address up to 30% of issues, and they can’t tell if you’ve done it, if you’ve addressed it, but addressed it wrong. Those companies have zillions of dollars in backing. So they go to you, and they say, Hey, we can make your site compliant for 50 bucks a month, you know, we’ll put this little toolbar on there. And, um, and so that is actually something that the whole accessibility profession is trying to educate the populace on, is that if it’s too good to be true sounds as it is, like, if you read their news, people buy into it, and then they get sued. And they’re like, I thought I was compliant. They told me I was, those companies are in like, the biggest one is in Israel, you can’t sue them, forget about it, you know, there’s no, so they’re just, it’s a deceptive marketing. And it’s dangerous. So you actually have to bring on a human to do the work. So that’s really what is going to be moving forward. The DOJ already has put out a statement saying everybody needs to be every website needs to be addressing accessibility, we’re going to in the next three to five years, you’re going to be hearing it as like, you know, SEO, it’s going to be the same call, you’re gonna hear it as commonly, as you hear SEO.

Karen Yankovich 27:15
Awesome. Awesome. Well, you guys keep an eye on my website, because it’s nice. And I’m gonna be working together soon. Yeah, update my website, too, to be more ADA compliant. Now that I’ve told you, I’ve 300 images that don’t have my back out, but will say, well, thank you so much for this. This has been great. I think that this is a topic I’ve been wanting to talk about. Because it is it’s a kind of thing that people like I can just speak for myself, I want to do better. But I don’t know how to learn. I don’t know how to I don’t know what I don’t know, right? Yeah. How do you don’t know what you don’t know. So hopefully, this, this will inspire a few people that didn’t know about this. Just a couple of ways to get started, I encourage you to book a call with Denise because, as you can see, she’s fun and personable to have a conversation with and really, really valuable. And I cannot wait to I can say that I have done all the work, not just some of the work to bring my website up to ADA compliance. And I am grateful that you’re in my life to do this. So thanks for being here and sharing this with everybody else do. Oh, it

Speaker 2 28:10
was an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. Karen, is Denise not

Karen Yankovich 28:13
awesome. Come on. We love Denise, I think she’s just doing some brilliant work in this world. I am so honored to have her in my life. And definitely check out Denise’s LinkedIn profile, connect with her there and take a look at the work that she’s doing. Because it’s important, it’s important for all of us to be doing this and infusing this into everything we do if we really want to be women that are showing up in a big way in the world, we need to have our eyes open right to the privilege that we have whatever that privilege is for us. So if you’ve listened before, if you love what you hear today, you know, I love to hear from you. So make sure that you’re following this show, wherever you’re listening to it. I would love your review. That’s so helpful to me because it lets me know the kinds of shows that resonate with you. And we could do more of those right? I would love for you to take a screenshot of this episode, and share it on your social media use the hashtag good girls get rich, tag me tag Denise. And that we can we can share your posts with our audiences. And then we can all get more visibility. This is how we’re all lifting each other up right in the show notes, which is Karen yankovich.com/ 236, you’ll see a link for SpeakPipe where you can leave us an audio message I would love that. I respond to every one of those personally and you know maybe there’s a guest you think I should interview or a topic you’d like to hear me talk about. I would love to get your feedback on that. So just go to Karen yankovich.com/ 236. You’ll see the blog for this page, you’ll see the link for SpeakPipe and all of the links that Denise and I talked about on this show today. Remember, if you want to know a little bit about what it is like to get some help with your strategy with you stepping in, in a bigger way into your business and your life. Direct grab a spot on our calendar. It’s Karen yankovich.com/call. Get to the calendar. We are here to support You I do this podcast to support you and I do believe that a rising tide lifts all boats right. So I again, if you can share this with your audience that would help me. And yeah, we’re lifting all boats that way right. So I hope this was great. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did and I will see you back here again next week for another episode of The Good girls get rich podcast